Speaking to him last night and he knows its last chance saloon wherever he goes. He's prepared to start any contract on a final warning and is determined not to screw things up one last time. Give the lad a chance and I'm sure his performances on the pitch will brng you round if he does sign. If he signs support him whilst hes here, you don't have to speak to him off the pitch if you don't want to but if he pulls on the shirt then he deserves the same respect of the next man. Like vasty says theres plenty of bad boys out there and in Latu who was done for breaking a womans nose on a garage forecourt then in my opinion we've had worse! I backed Latu and I'll back Ben, in fact I'll back Ben even more as I know the bloke and know far more about him than whats just been printed in the papers. I'm not saying he's an angel, but he's the sort of bloke that would do anything he can to help out whether he knows you or not, believe it or not he's a kind hearted bloke.

100% agree. He wasn't the worst at KR, just the one that got caught.

Theres no doubt he would be an assett on the field, its whether he can stay off the beer thats the problem. I'm not sure he's got the willpower.

The things that make good RL players don't always make model citizens. There is something missing in Bens make up as with many players and indeed people that stops them from thinking about the consequences of there actions. Great for playing sport, as inhibitions will stifle a player but not so good for life. This is made worse by there public profile and the fact they are big lads who can do some damage. However for me that is a job for the Courts to deal with.



This is why despite being heavily involved with the club for a while I never bothered to become a player groupie like some. That's their choice but for me it's a case of never meet your heroes as they will only let you down - most RL players fall into this category. I'll take your word regarding his personality. I am bothered by his behavior if it carries on as there has to be a limit, but if he's turned a corner then I'm only interested with what he does for the 80 minutes.



What I'm not sure about is whether we need him as a player.

That's the key, these player seem to have an uncontrollable desire to press the self destruct button.

Some very sensible opinions Vasty, a lot of which I agree with.



However, I think there's a line that as a modern, public-facing, community based organisation, we shouldn't cross. How does, for example, our work in local, multi-ethnic schools square up with employing someone who has made racist statements in a public arena? How about our commitment to the RFL's 'respect' policy? What about any attempts to get the Asian community interested in the sport? How do we engage with, let's say, a local unit for people with acquired brain injuries, when one of our playing staff is on film trying to inflict one on someone?



I'm very aware that RL has a built in element of controlled agression and that some of it's finest exponents are not especially academically gifted; that's fine, but for me, having a barney on the pitch or being a bit dozy off it are a million miles away from Mr Cockayne's very public transgressions.



For me, his appointment would damage our credibility.

If he gets appointed it would be on proviso there are no issues.



I would give him a chance and support him as any other who pulls on the shirt.

Most of the above is correct, it's a tricky one. If Cockayne deserves another go and it's not for me to say this must surely be the last.



I will also point out slightly OT that it is not illegal to hold racist opinions, it is illegal to discriminate and incite. I fully support the right of people to express their racist opinions. We live in a mature democracy and as such we should be able to handle these opinions. Just in the same way as we should be able to accept all forms of legally acceptable Muslim or whatever opinion. Believing in the British mentality of fair play I also believe it's far better that we know who the racists are then the vast majority of us can chose to ignore them and live and let live. You can't reason with racists of any persuasion until you know they are racist. Not allowing them the ability to do so and thus be argued with only reinforces their IMO ignorant beliefs. The thought police can simply never be allowed to exist IMO, that idea is a dangerous as any race theory. I don't need anyone to tell me racism is wrong and Cockayne is a fool for having those views. That said I've no wish to appease any racial minority just to pick up fans - so sorry Bren but I don't go with you on that bit. - I know my beliefs are not in keeping with modern attitudes and I will be accused of some ism or other but that's how I feel. Democracy and freedom in it's truest form cannot only be applied only to people who's views you and I like.

I'd love the club to take a moral stand and only sign players who are decent people too, whilst still challenging for honours. Sadly, that isn't going to happen and Ben Cockayne is much more exciting to watch than some like Josh Vievers. I thought he was KR's best player when we played them at home. Unfortunately, it seems that the characteristics which make us hate them as human beings are the same characteristics which give them that edge to be professional sportsmen. And whilst we're talking about idiots, I still think Jordan Tansery would be worth a one year deal, although I can't see Agar giving him another go.

Vasty, you couldn't be further from the truth in your assessment of Derek Turners off the field persona, in fact he was the very opposite of Ben Cockayne.



Derek was and is one of the quetiist and nicest people you could wish to meet and would rather damage himself before he did anyone harm.



Speaking with players who knew him at his peak, they have nothing but affection for him as a person but they all tell the same story about his change of personality once he put his shirt on. Bob Haigh said there was something about that collar passing over his ears that changed him from the quiet fella that entered the dressing room to the raging brute that left it.



I see him from time to time and he always smiles and has time to speak for a few minutes. Don't get me wrong, even now there's an air of menace lurking within him but I've never seen or heard of him letting it loose without him first being in a rugby shirt.



I understand what you're trying to convey but you chose the wrong bloke to make your point.

Cockayne only really has an attitude problem of the pitch where as Tansey has a problem both on and off. In which case he isn't worth the bother for me.

One of the deepest threads i've read on here for ages, you can tell the seasons over.



Also, I was kind of hoping we would be moving away from the "lets sign a nutter and reabilitate him" regime for [uprofessional acting [/usportsmen.

This is not about legality - it's about the credibility of the organisation; yes, winning games is a contributory factor to its credibility but let's be honest, Cockayne is hardly Billy Slater.



For me, we have to be able to balance quick wins with the need to appeal to and be acceptable to as many sections of the community as possible; a lot of our work is with vulnerable or disadvantaged groups and that work attracts significant plaudits and considerable grant-funding - it's highly likely that it also attracts commercial revenue - didn't AG's first involvement with the club come when his daughter became a Wildcat Kitten?



In view of all that, I say again, there has to be a line.

I never said he was like Cockayne. I also never suggested any issues with Turner off the pitch which of course makes him very different from Cockayne. I have no wish to bad mouth the man, but it is part of the legend that he did a great deal to cultivate on the pitch.



I also qualified it by saying it is what other people have told me. I'm willing to say that as ever the truth probably lays between the two. Whichever way you look at it becoming a raging brute as you put it under any circumstances is generally an unwanted personality trait would you not say. What we can never know is what impact modern attitudes and modern life would have on players from that era, none of us live in a bubble. Clearly there was something that controlled Turners aggression to a point that it only came out in games of RL. I also think it's a bit easy to over sentimentalise players from that era - you simply don't get a nickname like Rockey without there being some smoke in the fire. Either way he has all the traits that are acceptable on the pitch but not off it, the fact that he managed to control it is a blessing but as you say it's still there.



Anyway regardless as you say the point remains the same.

There are two lines in RL...



The try line and the line at the bottom of the cheque - everything else is optional. You can chose to believe otherwise if you want that's admirable and that's not me being patronising but you will be let down sadly.

I'm not trying to get into an argument here but you make this statement then immediately go on to draw a comparison between Fox & Turner







I know you're not trying to denegrate Derek Turners reputation and I've no doubt that you admire him and his on field ability. It's just that there's more than a hint your post that he wasn't someone you'd want to know off the field which is wrong.











I don't want to drag this out and derail the thread and I know your point is about Cockayne not Rocky Turner but I wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression about Derek as a man.

Fair enough, as I say what I know is most certainly second hand whilst I'm certain yours is not.

You'll forgive me also being slightly patronising then, when I say that in the modern world of business management, the concept of 'triple bottom line' is well established; it's not enough any more to be profitable and/or successful by old fashioned metrics - the company also has to take account of the effect it's policies and actions have on the communities in which it operates. I'd contend that the recruitment policy is an important part of that consideration.



I don't want to come across as sanctimonious or holier than thou, but as a parent of two young kids trying manfully to support their interest in RL and specifically WTW, I think that the conduct and behaviour of our players [udoes[/u matter and I, for one, am not disposed towards forgiving any indiscretion just because the perpetrator can score a couple of tries.

Well it's not down to us but I suspect IF Agar wants him he will be allowed to have him.

Nowt wrong with the kid ON the field, he is avery good player. If you can get him to stop acting like a numpty OFF the field you will have a really good asset in Cockayne.

I'm actully enjoying this thread, as someone one is interested in the social sciences it is very interesting

I think there is more chance of me winning the lottery than Agar signing Tansey.

Good player,who is an idiot to himself.

Jordan Tansey???

UMAD?

remember signing bad boy john burke sent off more times than he could remember nobody wanted him went on to to tour austrailia we turned him round worth a chance only one but where to play him is another thing better than mcgoldrick

I can understand the misgivings about signing Ben Cockayne - I probably have the same ones. Now an interesting factor is that those Hull FC posters on here on the Agar threads (well the sensible ones) do say that RA did sort out problems in the dressing room and on the field which were a real problem when the took over as Head Coach. I'm not sure how much this influenced off the field behaviour but it may throw a different light on the matter. In addition, as someone else has pointed out, he must know he's really on his last chance. Put it all together and it MAY be a good signing. I'd still not want to see a three year contract - one year and renewable on certain conditions would be better.



Mmmm .... still can't make up my mind.